FORD's failure to fix the ESCAPE PHEV is a problem for me. Trust FORD?

[gzebrick]

We have a 25 Escape PHEV in the family. It has an on-board smallish battery (spec'd at 14.4 kWh with about 11.5 kWh useable), FORD recently issued a recall for what has reportedly been a extremely rare issue. Some few batteries have vented on a very very small percentage of the PHEV vehicles. No fires, no crashes, but the battery failed. Ford's new recall notice states the owner should charge the battery to only 80% capacity AND use only the EV-AUTO setting (not EV-NOW nor EV-later) until the software fix is installed by the dealer. After the fix, you can then charge back up to 100% and use all modes.

It's BS.

The software fix is supposed to take about 1/2 day and it includes extra monitoring software PLUS this gem... the software update may result in a loss of capacity of about 12%.

Ain't no doubt. There's actually a reported 20% loss of capacity after the install. Not miles, not range.. CAPACITY. Easily verified per history recorded app and OBDII data, Before the update, say a 100% charge may add 10 kWh or so (varies) and if you reduced the max limit to 80% added only an expected 8 kWh.

After the update, charging to 100% now adds... you guessed it... 8kWh.

The fix is just to change the calibration so the OLD 80% is now the NEW 100%. They didn't fix crap!!!!

20% is bad enough, but if your daily commute was just about 40 miles, you probably barely ran your ICE... now when you apply the fix, the ICE will run EVERY DAY! For MILES! A 20% reduction in battery capacity may equal a 1000% INCREASE is ICE usage.

Waiting for the class-action lawsuit.
When Chevy had a known issue with the BOLT batteries, they stepped up and actually FIXED the problem, Replacement batteries!

This REALLY TURNS ME OFF. I don't think I trust FORD to do what's right with the FATHOM, and I sure as hell won't be in line to get one for the first 2 years or so.

I know a FORD rep monitors this forum. Care to comment?

 

[onuiebvbevnulib]

That is the problem with NCM batteries used in the 25 Escape PHEV.

NCM (Nickel Cobalt Manganese, also called NMC) electric vehicle batteries offer high energy density and long driving ranges, but they also face distinct technical, safety, and supply chain challenges.

Key Problems with NCM Batteries

• Thermal Stability & Safety Risks: Higher nickel content in the cathode reduces thermal stability, increasing the risk of overheating and thermal runaway. This requires complex Battery Management Systems (BMS) and active cooling setups.
• Degradation at High States of Charge: NCM batteries degrade faster when stored or kept at a 100% charge, especially in warm temperatures. Manufacturers often recommend limiting daily charging to 80% to protect long-term battery health.
• Shorter Cycle Life: NCM cells generally provide around 2,000 to 3,000 charge and discharge cycles, which is lower than alternative chemistries like LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
• Cobalt Dependency & Ethics: Cobalt is a critical structural stabilizer in NCM cells, but roughly 70% of the world's supply comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo, raising human rights and geopolitical supply chain concerns.
• High Production Costs: Cobalt and high-grade nickel are expensive commodities, making NCM packs costlier to manufacture than cobalt-free alternatives

Note the line above: "Manufacturers often recommend limiting daily charging to 80% to protect long-term battery health.". Ford is just implemented what should have been done first: 100% charge showing to the customer is really 80% charge to the battery.

So yes you will lose advertised range but at least your battery won't degrade faster or catch fire.

The Fathom uses LFP cells which can be charged to 100% all the time without issues. No degradation or fire issues.

Alan Clarke mentioned that Ford will recommend to customers to charge up the Fathom every night at home. He even mentioned it is beneficial to do so.

So yes I trust Ford for their battery choice for the Fathom.

 

[mark]

It would appear that the pioneers in the EV market have had their share of problems. I worked for an entrepenuer who told me you do no t want to be first or last with a new product. First has start up issues and last has nothing but price. the buyers are now about tenyears into this product cycle. Batteries a re now into at least a second and maybe a third improvement cycle. Ford has taken their lumps with the Lightning. Their desire to learn from their experience and come back with next generation is something I respect. They have licsenced the battery technology from China. China has been a leader in technologies for energy production and storage for about ten years (the deal with Tesla dates back a while ). I am personally more concerned about the software and integrated body and wiring than I am about the batteries. Modules are expensive compared to discrete parts.

 

[gzebrick]

That is the problem with NCM batteries used in the 25 Escape PHEV.



Note the line above: "Manufacturers often recommend limiting daily charging to 80% to protect long-term battery health.". Ford is just implemented what should have been done first: 100% charge showing to the customer is really 80% charge to the battery.

So yes you will lose advertised range but at least your battery won't degrade faster or catch fire.

The Fathom uses LFP cells which can be charged to 100% all the time without issues. No degradation or fire issues.

Alan Clarke mentioned that Ford will recommend to customers to charge up the Fathom every night at home. He even mentioned it is beneficial to do so.

So yes I trust Ford for their battery choice for the Fathom.

The original useable capacity of 11 kWh was already about 80% of the actual battery so there is/was absolutely no reason to reduce charging any less than 100% on the battery.

The recommendation for 80% doesn’t really apply any longer.

I maintain FORD is peddling bullshit with this fix.

 

[atomguy245]

Ford WILL NOT do a recall that involves actually changing parts. They do everything possible to fudge the repair with software fixes, no matter what the problem is.

 

[gzebrick]

To be clear, the issue isn’t the battery design. It’s apparently a possible manufacturing defect for less only a handful of vehicles. Instead of finding and fixing it, ford is using software to cripple every escape PHEV. It’s not a fix, not even a bandaid - it makes things worse for everyone.

 

[atomguy245]

To be clear, the issue isn’t the battery design. It’s apparently a possible manufacturing defect for less only a handful of vehicles. Instead of finding and fixing it, ford is using software to cripple every escape PHEV. It’s not a fix, not even a bandaid - it makes things worse for everyone.

That's what they do these days

 

[eStang]

If you want to do your commute purely on electric power you are probably ready for an EV.

 

[gzebrick]

If you want to do your commute purely on electric power you are probably ready for an EV.

We're all for EVs. We currently have an Ioniq EV (and a hybrid maverick, and a Miata) at our home where we have a garage AND a level-2 240 charge cable. We had 2 Bolts. Daughter moved out, onward and upward this past summer and sold her Bolt.

It's my daughter's PHEV. She has an apartment and can ONLY get access to a 120v level-1 charger. Her daily is just at the Escape electric limit ~ 40 miles. On some days she may not even fire up the ICE.

An EV wouldn't work for her as there's no easy 240 level-2 charger option and she sometimes puts well over 40 miles a day on the Escape.

For her, since she has only ONE vehicle, can't economically or easily top off with level-2. and often drives over 50 miles a day, the PHEV is actually a near perfect choice. She's in EV mode maybe 90% of the time, running with displaced emissions and very low cost/mile, and since it's a PHEV and not a full EV, she doesn't have ANY range nor any charge anxiety. Only thing better for her would be a true E-REV with maybe 80-`100 miles range.

I wouldn't recommend an EV as an only-car for most who can't charge with 240v level-2 at home. There may be some use cases where a level-1 charger on a EV might work, but the daily average miles would probably have to be on the very low (<40) side. Not saying you CAN'T, I'm saying EV + Level-1 only isn't preferred.

With luck her next move will put her in a spot with a level-2 option, and no doubt she'll go back to a full EV when it makes sense for her.

 

[Garbone]

Part of the reason I have EVs and skipped the Hybid thing is hybrids have more points of failure.

No home charging is a killer though, I would be very unhappy with having to charge at a supercharger daily. I could probably get it done using plug and charge at Wawa and charge for 5 to ten minutes a day as I grab a cup of Joe, Economics tells me I would save by having a Tesla Subcription but then Plug and Charge does not work so.......... 40 miles a day would be 40 minutes at a supercharger every 3rd day or so.

Yup It would suck, but so does commuting in general.

 

[chl]

The devil is in the details.

When I bought my 2012 Leaf in Dec 2011, they advertised a 24kWh battery...truth is, only 21kWh of that 24kWh was actually available to use, the other 12,5% was protective buffers top and bottom.

My 2023 Ford F-150 Lightning advertised as 98kWh which is the actual usable/available battery out of the 107.6kWh total.

But these are nominal numbers when the batteries are brand new. Due to small variations during manufacture and assembly, as well as BMS calibration differences, the actual usable battery capacity can vary around 5% plus or minus (usually minus).

And. as time passes, the battery capacity falls, both from age and use. Age takes about 1-3 percent per year, most occurs the first few years, then it plateaus (based on real world studies last I checked).

Most warranties guarantee 70% of original after 8 years or 100k miles.

In the real world, the EV batteries generally maintain 80% or better capacity after 8-10 years depending on various factors, like how often fast charging is performed, and how deeply discharged one lets the battery get before charging back to 80%-90%.

Ford recommends for the Lightning to charge to 90% for ordinary daily use and only to 100% when a long trip is planned.

The Lightning's passive cell balancing is done during and immediately after charging and mostly occurs at the 80-90% point and a few hours after that while still plugged in according to some observations and information from Ford - the complete exact details have not been shared with the public last I checked.

To me, a plug-in hybrid was the worst of both worlds so I didn't go for that.
A smallish EV battery requiring charging and a gas tank requiring gasoline station trips.

We got our fist Prius in 2005 - they were hard to obtain even then, not plug-in either.
We replaced it with a 2015 Prius not-plug-in when the 2005's computer was acting up and fixing that was too expensive to be worthwhile.

It cruises along the highway sipping gas and getting around 50 mpg and up, so cost wise it is competitive with an EV that has to fast charge at commercial stations at commercial rates.

We only use it for long trips.

The Prius burns gasoline which I'd prefer not to have to do, but the EV charging infrastructure and costs are impediments right now, until we replace it with a long-distance capable EV.

The Lightning is my local drive all the time. It's bigger than what I really would prefer, which is why the Fathom is on my radar.